From: "'Ben Bednarz'" <BenFB <at> AOL <dot> COM>
Date: 16 may 1997
Subject: Re: Real chess computing

In a message dated 97-05-16 07:22:53 EDT, you write:

<< Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> WIZARD <dot> NET> writes:
 >      I do agree that the success of computers (and Deep Blue's victory in
 > particular) in chess should tend to increase the popularity of shogi vs.
 > chess, especially since shogi programs are now good enough to be sparring
 > partners for the average player without being a threat to professionals
for
 > the foreseeable future.  I think that whoever wishes to convert chess
 > players to shogi should point to the superiority of humans over computers
in
 > shogi as evidence that shogi is more of a creative, imaginitive game than
 > chess, which is more of a logical exercise.

Reijer Grimbergen (grimberg <at> ETL <dot> GO <dot> JP) writes:
 I do not agree. Even though grandmaster chess players sometimes like to see
 themselves as artists, chess in Holland can be found on the sportspages and
 that is in my opinion where it belongs. Chess is a competition with other
 human minds and the goal of beating others has not changed now there is a
 machine that can beat us all. I am not sure about the developments in chess
 research (this might decrease now the ultimate peak seems to have been
 climbed), but I doubt very much that shogi will win popularity over chess
 because of Deep Blue's victory.
  >>
People tend to play the game they were raised with, which is chess in the
West.  However, tournament chess players have complained for years about the
flaws of chess.  Specifically: the ease with which a draw can be forced, even
against a strong opponent or in a difficult situation, the strong advantage
of white as first player, and the need for even weak players to excessively
study opening lines.  Shogi does not suffer from these problems, so I would
expect that in a culture where both games were taught, that shogi would be
more popular, particularly among strong players.  If chess professionals felt
threatened or lose their motivation because of strong computers, then it's
possible they could look at an alternative, such as shogi.  Most strong chess
players already play a variety of games (bridge, backgammon, poker), but
generally avoid chess-like games because they already play chess.  If someone
decides to quit playing chess, the need (or inclination) to play a chess-like
game is still there, so they could take up shogi.
  Personally, I think shogi could become much more popular in the US if it
were better promoted by the Japanese shogi organizations.  However, it seems
there are cultural issue involved, and the Japanese are very protective of
their culture.

By the way, thanks to Larry and Reijer for the great debate on programming
chess vs. shogi.  My view tend to coincide with Reijer, but I've never made a
formal study of game-solving programming (not withstanding that I worked on
an unsuccessful shogi program in 1986).  The emphasis on position evaluation
(as opposed to branching) is part of the reason that I still think Go is
possible.

Ben Bednarz

P.S.  In the U.S., most newspapers do not consider chess a sport.  It is rare
to see it reported in the sports section.  I've had this discussion with
newspaper editors, and they just don't see chess as compatible with the
sports section.