From: E R webtv net> Date: 17 aug 2004 Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" --WebTV-Mail-9482-2356 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Save up to 67% on Omaha Steaks + Get 6 FREE Burgers and a=20 FREE Cutlery Set + Cutting Board! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgpa2i6YsbnuqMaa/OmahaSteaks ------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I did it again! Now I owe an apology to hieroglyphics it seems. I once met a man at the place of an acquaintance who was hosting us to play Go who told me something about Chinese writing. He showed the symbol for a tree, that two meant a woods, and three a forest. He also told us that Chinese had sound symbols used to write the names of foreigners and that there were two types of court writing, one used by the men and another by the women if I recall correctly. We recently had an exhibit of Egyptian treasures here. I got to see a replica of the Rosetta Stone. It seems to me that the hieroglyphics metaphor was a bad choice on my part. Maybe hieroglyphics are easier to puzzle out than kanji. A painting/drawing of an eye in hieroglyphics looks like an eye to me. I don't need to puzzle out what it is supposed to look like. I know instantly. That is what would be nice in a Shogi set in this Westerners opinion. Instant recognition without needing to puzzle out something. (Kanji is not the only offender here in my opinion. I had two years of German in high school. The letters for "B" and "V" look far too alike.) Look at western chess pieces. The knight looks like the head of a horse which is known to be what knights rode. The knowledge of how the knight moves must be gained, but there is no trouble recognizing that the piece is a knight at the snap of a finger. I would like to be able to recognize that the piece is a spear, or knight, or silver general, or gold general that fast. Instant recognition. Something like Japanese hieroglyphics might be the answer. I once had a Florentine chess set by Gallant Knight=AE in which each piece looked like a statue of what it was supposed to be. Would something like that work for ShoGi, namely flat drawings of the characters that actually look somewhat like what such a character would look like? Maybe they'd be simplified versions. In chess one doesn't need the whole horse with armored knight with shield on top to recognize a knight. I suspect that symbol would even work in Japan where the samurai rode horses too. The Kings? Biggest piece with no others like them. Pawns? Many of them. Dead giveaway. Rooks and Bishops? What was the historical source like? (I would not want to confuse those two in play especially if touch move is required.) Did they use towers atop elephants? Then the tower top symbol could be used. Maybe you have a better one. For me the others were the problem. It may have been puzzling out whether pieces were knights or silver generals. About kanji, I think I could learn it, but 2,000 characters is many more than 26. would the japanese or Chinese want to learn kanji themselves if they knew alphabet merely to recognize game pieces? It seems like a large effort for the return. Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. http://click.topica.com/= caacvgua2i6YsbnuqMaf/411Web ------------------------------------------------------------------- --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.= bnuqMa.= c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^---------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-9482-2356 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-3207.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.232) by storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:56:48 -0700 Received: from out008.topica-platinum-w.com (out008.topica-platinum-w.com [65.77.104.28]) by smtpin-3207.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with SMTP id C271611DD2 for webtv net>; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26773 invoked by uid 0); 17 Aug 2004 04:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.jcnet.ad.jp) (218.219.80.139) by 0 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2004 04:49:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 15643 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2004 13:49:25 +0900 Received: from unknown (HELO vcgw3.mta.jcnet.ad.jp) (10.1.0.99) by 10.1.10.24 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2004 13:49:25 +0900 Received: from vcgw2.mta.jcnet.ad.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vcgw3.mta.jcnet.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9F136619 for topica com>; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:49:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from vcgw1.mta.jcnet.ad.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vcgw2.mta.jcnet.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6351B46B0E for topica com>; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:49:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from parkcity.ne.jp (ia112.ia00.iad.parkcity.ne.jp [210.135.195.112]) by vcgw1.mta.jcnet.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB505700F for topica com>; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:49:25 +0900 (JST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <1939762944-1463792382-1092708556 boing topica com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) To: shogi topica com From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> Subject: Re: The myth of the "kanji barrier" Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:50:47 +0900 Message-ID: <1664607624-1463792126-1092718192 boing topica com> Errors-To: boing topica com> Reply-To: shogi topica com X-Topica-Id: <1092718190.inmta006.11234.1254009> List-Help: topica com/> List-Unsubscribe: topica com> X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Amazing Diet Patch The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! http://click.topica.com/= caacvgta2i6Ysbn8jDxa/MyDietPatches ------------------------------------------------------------------- I am surprised that so much discussion has been generated by this=20 question of whether the kanji on shogi pieces put people off or make=20 the game more difficult to learn. My first encounter with kanji was=20 when a Japanese student at a language school where I was teaching=20 taught me shogi. I remember being struck by the beauty of the Chinese=20 characters and attracted to the game partly for that reason. Even=20 though I had never seen kanji before, it did not take me long to become=20 familiar with the pieces (though perhaps a little longer than the 3=20 minutes which, according to Danerud Martin, the average Swedish=20 beginner requires!). After all, there are only eight types of pattern=20 to remember. Anyway, I found these "hieroglyphics," as one person=20 surprisingly refers to them, very appealing and started studying=20 Japanese. That took me to Japan and, to cut a long story short, I have=20 been living here for 15 years, working as a translator. In an earlier post, Paul Smith wrote: "But I think that the key question is - are there a significant number=20 of people who are put off trying shogi because of the kanji? And from=20 my personal experience (I could give various examples) I am confident=20 that the answer is yes." My personal experience is the opposite and I am pretty sure the answer=20 is no. The kanji made shogi more attractive and interesting for me and=20 I have heard several people say the same. Of course we can never know=20 for sure how many people have been "put off" because we are not likely=20 to meet them, but I very much doubt that shogi players in the west=20 constitute a small minority who were not put off and managed to=20 overcome this barrier through dogged and persistent efforts. I am more=20 inclined to believe that even fewer people would have been attracted to=20 the game if they only saw the kanji-less sets (especially those with=20 just letters and arrows). Some participants in this discussion seem to=20 believe that there is a vast untapped shogi population out there in the=20 west and we only need really nice-looking occident-friendly shogi=20 pieces to draw them in. This seems to me very unlikely. I think the=20 shogi population in the west will always be tiny, consisting mainly of=20 eccentrics like you and me! This is what experience over the past 20=20 years tells us (sadly, I hear that the MSO shogi tournament this year=20 has just been canceled due to lack of entries). When Habu was asked why shogi did not catch on big-time in the west, he=20 simply replied "because they have chess." I also think this is the=20 main reason. The kind of people who might get into shogi, already a=20 very small percentage of the total population, are chess players. Paul=20 Smith believes that more chess players might take up shogi if the sets=20 were "westernized." But this assumes that chess players would want to=20 play another type of chess. Why should they? There just aren't enough=20 hours in the day. When I was into chess in my late teens and early=20 twenties, it was an all-consuming passion. How would an obsessive chess=20 player find the time to take up another type of chess that is as deep=20 and difficult (if not more so)? And why would they want to? In my=20 experience, some chess players have even seemed a little "threatened"=20 by the thought of a different type of chess that might be even better=20 than the game they have devoted so much time to. I remember that I felt=20 some initial resistance to shogi, probably for this reason. The kind of=20 chess players who get interested in shogi are those who are losing=20 interest in chess, or who have exceptional intellectual curiosity, or=20 are exceptionally broadminded. They are a tiny fraction of the small=20 chess-playing population. I have another, more personal, reason for being annoyed by this talk of=20 a "kanji barrier." The Japanese have a strong prejudice that foreigners=20 cannot be expected to master kanji. Even though they were imported from=20 China (at a time when Japan did not have a written language) they are=20 somehow assumed to be uniquely Japanese and inaccessible to the=20 outsider. Admittedly it was hard work for me to memorize them, but you=20 only need to learn about 2,000 to read a newspaper and, because of=20 similarities among them, they can be learned in groups rather than=20 individually. In short, kanji are not as difficult as they look. Even=20 so, when I meet a Japanese person and tell them that I translate from=20 Japanese to English for a living, they invariably ask; "Can you read=20 kanji as well?" This cultural prejudice is widespread and deep. It is=20 shared, unfortunately, by Manabu Terao and Naohiro Sanada of the ISPS=20 (International Shogi Popularization Society). They have spent countless=20 hours wracking their brains about this "kanji barrier," thinking about=20 the various different piece designs they could use, designing special=20 stickers to put on the pieces, and seriously considering the=20 possibility of promoting shogi in Esperanto (I kid you not!). Please=20 don't get me wrong - I do not doubt their sincerity and I know they=20 have done a lot of good work in promoting shogi worldwide, but I still=20 can't help feeling sad that they have wasted too much energy on this=20 non-problem. I once asked Mr. Sanada whether he had actually done a=20 survey of western shogi players to determine whether they had had=20 difficulty familiarizing themselves with the kanji on the pieces. He=20 looked quite perplexed! When I met him recently at the Shogi Renmei, he=20 bemoaned the decrease in the shogi population in the west. "It's the=20 kanji," he said, shaking his head. I would be quite dismayed if this strange view caught on in the west. Richard Sams Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a Great Credit Card for You Today=20 You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs.=20=20 All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. http://click.topica.com/= caacvgua2i6Ysbn8jDxf/411Web ------------------------------------------------------------------- --WebTV-Mail-9482-2356--