From: bpricem <bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp>
Date: 28 aug 2004
Subject: Re: Elo ratings

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The person who maintains the webpage is Higuchi Tatsushi=20=20
<mailto:t-higu <at> hi-ho <dot> ne <dot> jp>

The rating list is pretty accurate because if you look at the list and=20
cross reference to which league they are in in the Meijin- sen. You will=
=20
find most of them are in order." A" group players are  near the top and=20
the C2 players are usually near the bottom.. The only aberrations are=20
the younger players who are moving up quickly in strength but held back=20
by league promotion protocol. And the older guys who are getting demoted=
=20
every year..


But having seen this table,  the recent results in the matches, are=20
fairly backed up by the numbers. Curious that Watanabe is ranked 5th and=
=20
is only 5 dan and Shima being the lowest ranked  "A" player at number 49=
=20
on the list..

Bob


Larry Kaufman wrote:

>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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>=20=20
>
>       It seems that initial ratings were assigned based on class, and=20
> then ratings were updated based on the simple rating formula used by=20
> SC24 and a long time ago by the US Chess Federation (16 per win +/- 4%=
=20
> of the difference). I can't tell whether the games are rated one by=20
> one as played, or if all games in a three month period are rated as if=
=20
> they were one big tournament. Can you tell if this is stated? Also,=20
> the question of who is doing this remains.
>      Anyway, it's interesting that after the "big three", the top=20
> rated player is Kimura, who is not a title holder or A class player=20
> but who is considered very strong as a consistently high scorer. Next=20
> is young Watanabe, surprisingly ahead of many recent title holders.
>=20=20
>      Larry
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: bpricem <mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp>
>     To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com <mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com>
>     Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 11:18 AM
>     Subject: Re: Elo ratings
>
>Hi Larry,
>
>If you click on this link it explains how these calculations were done. It=
 is in Japanese but you can follow the math.=20
>
>http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/ex-rating.html
>
>Bob
>
>Larry Kaufman wrote:
>=20=20=20=20
>
>>          Wow, this is really interesting! The ratings look quite
>>     plausible (relative to one another) at first glance, with Habu
>>     and Moriuchi at the top followed closely by Tanigawa. The spread
>>     between these three (on average) and the median Pro is just about
>>     400 points, so if this site is accurate the value of "several" in
>>     my earlier post is "4".
>>           Can you (or anyone else who reads Japanese) look at the
>>     site and tell us who is calculating the ratings and anything else
>>     that might be posted about how the calculations are done?
>>=20=20=20=20=20=20
>>          Larry Kaufman
>>
>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>         From: bpricem <mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp>
>>         To: shogi <at> topica <dot> com <mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com>
>>         Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:36 AM
>>         Subject: Re: Elo ratings
>>
>>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
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nksoutlet------------------------------------------------------------------=
->http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLLnb/Inksoutlet
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>>=20=20=20=20
>>
>>         Here is a Japanese pro rating site. I don't know the accuracy
>>         of it.
>>
>>         http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html
>>
>>         Bob
>>
>>         Pieter Stouten wrote:
>>
>>>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. www.inksoutlet.com
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>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>--- Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> comcast <dot> net> wrote:
>>>
>>>=20=20
>>>
>>>>We have an ELO rating system for shogi outside Japan, called the
>>>>"Pan-Atlantic" rating system. 5 Dan is centered at 2340. My actual
>>>>Pan-Atlantic shogi rating is 2354, ...
>>>>
>>>>=20=20=20=20
>>>>
>>>For a description of the rating system and the most recent Pan-Atlantic
>>>Elo list, please refer to the following pages:
>>>
>>>http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratings.html
>>>http://www.shogi.net/fesa/rating.intro
>>>http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt
>>>
>>>Enjoy!
>>>
>>>Pieter
>>>
>>>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=20=20
>>>
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>

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The person who maintains the webpage is <a
 href=3D"mailto:t-higu <at> hi-ho <dot> ne <dot> jp" accesskey=3D"h">Higuchi Tatsushi&nbsp; =
</a><br>
<br>
The rating list is pretty accurate because if you look at the list and
cross reference to which league they are in in the Meijin- sen. You
will find most of them are in order." A" group players are&nbsp; near the
top and the C2 players are usually near the bottom.. The only
aberrations are the younger players who are moving up quickly in
strength but held back by league promotion protocol. And the older guys
who are getting demoted every year..<br>
<br>
<br>
But having seen this table,&nbsp; the recent results in the matches, are
fairly backed up by the numbers. Curious that Watanabe is ranked 5th
and is only 5 dan and Shima being the lowest ranked&nbsp; "A" player at
number 49 on the list..<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Kaufman wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"
 cite=3D"mid1057290725-1463792126-1093623359 <at> boing <dot> topica <dot> com">
  <title></title>
  <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;charset=3DISO-8859=
-1">
  <meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3D"GENERATOR">
  <style></style>
  <pre>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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<a href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLJdb/Inksoutlet">http://=
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
  </pre>
  <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <stro=
ng>It seems that initial
ratings were assigned based on class, and then ratings were updated
based on the simple rating formula used by SC24 and a long time ago by
the US Chess Federation (16 per win +/- 4% of the difference). I can't
tell whether the games are rated one by one as played, or if all games
in a three month period are rated as if they were one big tournament.
Can you tell if this is stated? Also, the question of who is doing this
remains.</strong></font></div>
  <div><strong><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Any=
way, it's
interesting that after the "big three", the top rated player is Kimura,
who is not a title holder or A class player but who is considered very
strong as a consistently high scorer. Next is young Watanabe,
surprisingly ahead of many recent title holders.</font></strong></div>
  <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><strong><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lar=
ry</font></strong></div>
  <blockquote dir=3D"ltr"
 style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-=
left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
    <div
 style=3D"background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-backgr=
ound-clip: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; -moz-background=
-origin: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: nor=
mal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretc=
h: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
    <a title=3D"bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp"
 href=3D"mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp">bpricem</a> </div>
    <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
    <a title=3D"shogi <at> topica <dot> com" href=3D"mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com">shogi@to=
pica.com</a>
    </div>
    <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, August 27, 2004 11:18 AM</div>
    <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: Elo ratings</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <pre>Hi Larry,

If you click on this link it explains how these calculations were done. It =
is in Japanese but you can follow the math.=20

<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href=3D"http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/ex-rating.html">http://www.hi-=
ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/ex-rating.html</a>

Bob

Larry Kaufman wrote:
    </pre>
    <blockquote
 cite=3D"mid1128571770-1463792638-1093618283 <at> boing <dot> topica <dot> com" type=3D"cite=
">
      <div><strong><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Wow, this is really
interesting! The ratings look quite plausible (relative to one another)
at first glance, with Habu and Moriuchi at the top followed closely by
Tanigawa. The spread between these three (on average) and the median
Pro is just about 400 points, so if this site is accurate the value of
"several" in my earlier post is "4". </font></strong></div>
      <div>&nbsp;<font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
strong>Can you (or
anyone else who reads Japanese) look at the site and tell us who is
calculating the ratings and anything else that might be posted about
how the calculations are done?</strong></font></div>
      <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><strong><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Larry Kaufman</font></strong></div>
      <blockquote dir=3D"ltr"
 style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-=
left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
        <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
        <div
 style=3D"background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-ba=
ckground-clip: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; -moz-backgr=
ound-origin: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
 normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-st=
retch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
        <a title=3D"bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp"
 href=3D"mailto:bpricem <at> gaea <dot> ocn <dot> ne <dot> jp">bpricem</a> </div>
        <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
        <a title=3D"shogi <at> topica <dot> com" href=3D"mailto:shogi <at> topica <dot> com">shog=
i <at> topica <dot> com</a>
        </div>
        <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, August 27, 2004 9:36 AM</div>
        <div
 style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: norma=
l; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: Elo ratings</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <pre>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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    </pre>
Here is a Japanese pro rating site. I don't know the accuracy of it.<br>
        <br>
        <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href=3D"http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html">http://www.hi=
-ho.ne.jp/t-higu/shogi/pro-rating.html</a><br>
        <br>
Bob<br>
        <br>
Pieter Stouten wrote:<br>
        <blockquote
 cite=3D"mid1984539728-1463792126-1093612766 <at> boing <dot> topica <dot> com" type=3D"cite=
">
          <pre wrap=3D"">Your free subscription is supported by today's spo=
nsor:
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Guarantee. Free Shipping on orders over $49. <a
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 href=3D"http://click.topica.com/caacAsfa2i6Ysa7fLJda/Inksoutlet">http://cl=
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--- Larry Kaufman <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
 href=3D"mailto:lkaufman <at> comcast <dot> net">&lt;lkaufman@comcast <dot> net&gt;</a> wrot=
e:

  </pre>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre wrap=3D"">We have an ELO rating system for shogi outside J=
apan, called the
"Pan-Atlantic" rating system. 5 Dan is centered at 2340. My actual
Pan-Atlantic shogi rating is 2354, ...

    </pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap=3D""><!---->For a description of the rating system and =
the most recent Pan-Atlantic
Elo list, please refer to the following pages:

<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratings.html">http://www.shogi.net/fesa/=
ratings.html</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/rating.intro">http://www.shogi.net/fesa/=
rating.intro</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href=3D"http://www.shogi.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt">http://www.shogi=
.net/fesa/ratinglists/latest.txt</a>

Enjoy!

Pieter

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