From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 7 nov 2005 Subject: Re: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Oprah vs Dr. Phil- who is your favorite? Vote now. http://click.topica.com/= caaeatsa2i6YsbnuqMaa/Your opinion ------------------------------------------------------------------- Two comments: I don't understand the talk about a "gap" between=20 amateurs and pros. Obviously pros are much stronger on average than=20 amateurs, even amateurs who participate in national championships. But it i= s=20 also clear that there is some overlap, i.e. that the top few amateurs are= =20 stronger than the weaker pros. It is the same in chess: some players withou= t=20 an international title are stronger than some who have it, but none without= =20 it are as strong as the title contenders. Second point: Of course it is obvious that there is no non-Japanese= =20 player who is even remotely close to Pro strength. With the various rating= =20 systems we have now (Shogi Club 24, Pan-Atlantic, Japanese Amateur Shogi= =20 Federation, Tokyo Amateur Shogi Association, etc.) it is quite clear how fa= r=20 any particular individual is from pro strength, and currently no one is=20 closer than about a bishop handicap from the lower pro levels. The question= =20 is, if some westerner, presumably a top-level chess player, makes the switc= h=20 to shogi and demonstrates that his level is indeed on a par with average c2= =20 class pros, but he is over the 20 year age limit to join Shoreikai, what= =20 would be done for him (or her)? At the minimum, I believe that the Renmei would let him join the=20 Shoreikai if he were still under age 30. Otherwise, if he demonstrated=20 similar results to Segawa, don't you think that a similar test would be=20 arranged? I know it's all highly hypothetical, but it's not totally=20 unreasonable to imagine a young grandmaster making the switch and reaching= =20 pro strength. Larry Kaufman ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "bogin" yahoo co jp> To: topica com> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 3:06 AM Subject: Re: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory While it is true that the gap between pro's and amateur is getting smaller (thanks to the Internet) I still think that it is still there. It may not be as big as it was 30 years ago but it is still there. Not many amateur's in Japan could match Mr. Segawa's performance. Even though I know there are very strong players outside of Japan, I am not sure= if they are strong enough. Even among the strongest players in the world that attended the recent International Shogi Forum, how many of them could have won 3 games (or maybe even 1 game) like Mr. Segawa did? I think the Shogi Renmei knows this. Maybe this is one reason the best Japanese amateurs do not seem participate in these international forums. Besides, I have a feeling that before the Shogi Renmei ever allows a foreigner to become pro this way, it will have to become a regular option for very strong Japanese amateurs first. Not only in Shogi, but in other types of Japanese things, the accepted path= is to start at the bottom and move up. Very rarely do you enter at the top.= Everyone from Sumo wrestlers, Igo players, calligraphers, Kabuki performers, Karate and Judo, Sake makers, Ikebana practitioners, to entertainers and even stand-up comedians usually go through some kind of "Shoreikai System". For better or worse, that is the Japanese way. I am not a Igo fan so I may have some of this wrong. I know that the Igo world is much more international than the Shogi world. The strongest players are not necessarily even Japanese. So, this may not be a very good example. Anyway, there is an American from California named Michael Redmond who is a= Professional Igo player here in Japan. He is a 9-dan so he is pretty strong. Anyway, I think is only 1 of 3 Western professional players (not a teaching professional) that is active here in Japan. I've read that he started playing Igo when he was 10 like it so much that he came to Japan on= his own when he was 14 (he's 42 now) and it took him 4 years before he passed the pro-exam. He found a teacher went through the Igo "Shoreikai" (Insei) and became a pro just as all amateurs would. For many Japanese shogi players, shogi is indeed more than a "game". I do not feel that it is going to be set up so that someone you can become pro via long-distance. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it. I think that the only way we are going to see a foreigner as a shogi pro is for them to go through the system like Mr. Redmond did. It is going to be someone who comes to Japan at a relatively young age and puts their time learning not only shogi but also the culture and the language. Maybe someday we will have a foreigner pro. Maybe the first person will even be a woman (since the standards are not as rigorous). But if there is then I am almost positive that person will have to get through the Shoreikai first. Or at least win almost every major amateur tournament there is in Japan before they will even be considered. Bill Gaudry > This is very good news! It means that in principle the path is > open for > any player in the world to become a pro, even if he cannot go thru > the > Shoreikai due to age or to living outside Japan. If I were thirty > years > younger it would surely motivate me to try to become a pro. > > Larry Kaufman > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Manabu Terao" mx3 ttcn ne jp> > To: topica com> > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:42 AM > Subject: Congratulation on Segawa-san's victory > > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > New Apple=1B$B!&=1B(BiPod=1B$B!&=1B(Bnano. As Thin as a No. 2 Pencil. Sto= res up to 3 > Days of Songs! Get it Here FREE*! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatBa2i6Ysa7fLLna/Superb Rewards > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hello Shogi fans, > > Just quickly I would like to inform you that Segawa-san won the 5th > examination > game with Takano 5dan with 104moves. The score of the examination is > now > 3-2. > He has been entitled to become a professional player without playing > the 6th > game. > > Regards > Manabu Terao > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > FREE DVR > And up to 3 additional standard receivers! > Call 1-800- 901 - 5080 Today > http://click.topica.com/caaeas1a2i6Ysa7fLLnf/DirectSatTV > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Is your computer freezing up or slowing down? > Repair corrupt files and harmful errors - protect your PC > Take a 2-minute PC health check-up at no charge! > http://click.topica.com/caaeatra2i6Ysa7fLJaf/PC PowerScan > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------- Yahoo! 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