From: Larry Kaufman comcast net> Date: 22 mar 2007 Subject: Re: Watanabe's comments (2) ----- Original Message ----- From: c2i net> To: topica com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:23 AM Subject: Re: Watanabe's comments (2) Thanks very much for that, absolutely fascinating, and very open-minded. Both the remark about computers finding strange moves that expand the boundaries of the game, and the comment that their endgames are not yet perfect are very interesting. Looking back on how computer programs overtook the chess world it sounds like they are closing the shogi gap remarkably quickly. It will be interesting to see if there is a longer period where things are more even due to the differences in the games. jt I have a feeling that due to the differences in the games, the period will be shorter, not longer. My point is that the draw margin in chess made it possible for top players and computers to be competitive for quite a few years. Once Shogi programs start to beat top pros in serious play (which looks likely to happen in a year or two judging by this game), I think it will be only a couple more years before they can win pretty consistently. We may not be so far away from seeing shogi programs giving lance handicap to the Meijin or Ryu-Oh titleholders, just as we are now seeing chess programs giving pawn odds to grandmasters. Larry Kaufman ----- Original Message --------------- Subject: Re: Watanabe's comments (2) From: Richard Sams parkcity ne jp> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:00:15 +0900 To: shogi topica com > >Akira Watanabe is very impressive. After winning his game against >Bonanza under great pressure, I imagine he had to attend the inevitable >sponsor's party and answer a lot of questions from people not >necessarily familiar with shogi. According to his blog, he got home at >midnight. He must have been exhausted, but instead of going to bed he >started writing his report on the game for his readers. At around 2.15 >a.m. I noticed that he had already posted the first part (Preparations >for the Game). Since it was quite short, I decided to translate it, >assuming he would write his report on the game after a good night's >sleep. But when I finished my translation at around 3.00 a.m. I noticed >that he had already posted his game report! I've just finished >translating that (see below). Now I notice that he's at it again, >answering questions from fans about the game. I'm afraid I can't keep >up with this pace . > >Here's the URL for Watanabe's site: > >http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kishi-akira/ > > Moves of the game: >Black: Bonanza >White: Akira Watanabe, Ryuo Titleholder >P-7f P-8d; P-6f P-3d; R-6h S-6b; K-4h P-5d; K-3h K-4b; K-2h K-3b; S-7b >G6a-5b; L-1h S-5c; K-1i B-3c; S-6c K-2b; S-2h G-3b; S-5f S-4d; P-4f >P-8e; B-7g G5b-4b; G-3i L-1b (Diagram); P-4e S-5c; S-4g K-1a; S-3f >P-2d; P-2f S-2b; G6i-5h S-2c; G5h-4h P-1d; S3f-2g G-2b; G4h-3h G4b-3b; >P-6e (Diagram) . Bx7g+; Nx7g G-4b; B*6f G4b-3b; B-7e B*4b; P-5f P-7d; >B-5g B-3c; B-4f R-8c; R-6g P-8f; Px8f Rx8f; Bx9a+ R-8i+; P-4d Sx4d; >R-4g +Rx9i (Diagram); P-6d S-3e; P-3f L*4f; R-3g Sx2f; Sx2f L-4i+; >Px6c+ +Lx3i; Gx3i P-2e; Sx2e P*2g; Rx2g P*2f; Rx2f G*1e (Diagram); P*2d >Gx2f; Px2c+ G3bx2c; P*2d P*2g; Px2c+ +Rx3i; +Px2b Bx2b; Sx3i G*2h; Sx2h >Px2h+; +Bx2h P*2g; +Bx2g Gx2g; S*3i S*3h; G*2h Gx2h; Sx2h P*2g Black >Resigns > > > From Akira Watanabe's Blog > >March 22, 2007 > >Daiwa Securities Special Match Against Bonanza Part 2 - The Game > >I got up at 8.00a.m. and left for the venue with an NHK employee who >had come to take photos of the event. We had the following conversation >in the car: > >NHK photographer: "Bonanza has already been set up at the venue and >lost a game to Matsuo." > >Me: "You're kidding! You mean that Matsuo?" > >"Yes." > >"Matsuo 6-dan lost to Bonanza?" > >"Oh no, sorry, it wasn't Matsuo - it was Matsumoto-san (amateur 4 or 5 >dan) who's in charge of the Internet live transmission." > >"Ah, well that's not so surprising." (Here I am feeling really nervous >before the big game and he's trying to give me a heart attack!) > > Matsumoto-san, who calls Bonanza "my friend," phoned me on the day >before the game: "Hello. Just to let you know that Bonanza is already >at the venue and can apparently analyze many more moves ahead than >before. (Sounding really pleased) Bonanza's rating is now 2800! Good >luck!" > >Who is this guy supporting? > >By the way, shogi ratings are provided on the Shogi Club 24 Internet >shogi dojo. The highest rating at the moment is 3084, so that means >Bonanza is only 300 points below the top. This is no joke - I'm >beginning to get scared. > >We arrive at the venue. Judging from what people there say, it really >seems true that today Bonanza is functioning very well and fast too. I >was quite shocked. Returning to the back room, I try to relax but my >heart is beating faster and I'm already in slight panic mode. If I >think about the coming game I'll only have negative thoughts so I spend >the remaining time watching TV. > >The game begins. As expected, Bonanza plays 4th file rook anaguma. > > GAME DIAGRAM (after 30 . L-1b) > >Up to now everything has gone as expected. I looked at various ways of >playing this position and came to the conclusion that this was the >safest. Here Bonanza usually plays P-6e S-5c; Bx3c+ G3bx3c; B*7a. > >REFERENCE DIAGRAM > >After . R-7b, Black has to exchange the bishop for the silver on 5c and >White already has a winning position. This is what I had been expecting >but today Bonanza didn't play this way. Afterwards I asked the >programmer, who said that Bonanza had looked at B*7a but stopped >thinking at that point! > >Because it didn't play B*7a I felt "there's something different about >Bonanza today." > >GAME DIAGRAM (after 47. P-6e) > >P-6e seemed to be a surprise for many people, but having played Bonanza >many times, I was expecting it. This kind of move is generally >considered bad, but in practice it's not so easy to punish. > >51. B*6f was a move I'd never seen before in such a position, but it >was actually quite good. It's the kind of move that shogi pros don't >consider, and you could even say that computers have contributed to >improving the technical level of shogi in this way. I think computers >will continue to show us new kinds of move like this and that this >could lead to the discovery of new ideas and tesuji. > >GAME DAIGRAM (after 70 . *Rx9i) > >This is a key moment. Here Bonanza played 71. P-6d. When I saw this >move, I said out loud "What's this (what's this weak move)?" P-6d cuts >off Black's promoted bishop on 9a and even if he makes a tokin with >Px6c+, it's a long way from my anaguma castle. Thinking "Thanks very >much!", I sank into deep thought. > >Several minutes later I was thinking "Maybe P-6d is a good move after >all." If I play . Px6d, he takes my knight with *Bx8a and, compared to >taking the knight immediately in the diagram position, his attack is >one move faster because he can bring the promoted bishop back with >*Bx5d. So I can't take the pawn on 6d. If I can't take the pawn, I must >attack right away but I can't see any effective way of attacking. After >the move I played, . S-3e, I was expecting Px6c+, when I intended . >P-2e with a clear advantage. I had invited this knowing very well that >the computer program awards high points for making a tokin, but Bonanza >immediately played the best move, P-3f. > >Bonanza had chosen P-6d based on the thinking "After P-6d the opponent >must attack. If so, the attack can be successfully repulsed." Human >players wouldn't consider P-6d because of their intuitive fear of >blocking the promoted bishop's diagonal. > >Seeing these moves, I realized that I my opponent was much stronger >than the Bonanza I had encountered up to then. > >GAME DIAGRAM (after 88 . G*1e) > >This was the point where the outcome was decided. Just when I had >worked out that I would win after 89. P*2d, Bonanza actually played it. > >If my opponent were human, I'd think "he's probably missed *Rx3i" but >since I trust Bonanza's endgame ability I was now thinking "*Rx3i ought >to win, but maybe there's an amazing reply ." > >In the same position you think differently depending on whether the >opponent is human or a computer. > >In fact, it seems that Bonanza underestimated . *Rx3i. Computers miss >things too. I thought the computer's endgame was perfect, so I felt a >little relieved! > >After . G*5a, instead of P*2d, I had been afraid of the line L*2g Gx2f; >Lx2f P*2g; G*3h Px2h*; *Bx2h (Reference Diagram). > >REFERENCE DIAGRAM (up to 95. *Bx2h) > >To play this, the opponent has to think "I'm giving up a rook and my >silver will be taken by a pawn, but I'll be able to bring my promoted >bishop into the defense and my opponent has run out of pawns." I >figured that Bonanza wouldn't be capable of finding such a high-level >sequence. > >So P*2d was the losing move. Not surprisingly, the intuitive "sense of >distance" from the king seems to have been hard for Bonanza. > >Still, I'm glad I won. I'm really relieved too. > >I had heard that computer programs will get stronger using >high-performance hardware, but I didn't expect it to be as strong as >this. With further advances in the hardware and improvements by the >developers, they are going to get even stronger. I thought they still >had quite a way to go, but now we have to recognize that they've >reached the point where they are getting to be a match for >professionals. I think we can no longer avoid matches between computers >and shogi professionals. And next time it will attract even greater >attention. > >For the past month, I've been feeling quite a lot pressure as the big >day approached. Now at last I'm free from that pressure, so I'm going >to sleep very well .. zzzzz > > > > > > > > > > --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: shogi-l shogi net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a2i6Ys.aB5TiY.c2hvZ2kt Or send an email to: shogi-unsubscribe topica com For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------